Dar es Salaam — CHADEMA vice-chairperson (Mainland) John Heche told the High Court on Friday that the April 3, 2025 speech at the centre of Tundu Lissu’s treason trial repeated the party’s wider No Reforms, No Election campaign, which he said had been presented to religious leaders, editors, civil-society organisations, diplomats and the public.
Heche said the CHADEMA secretariat, rather than Lissu, organised the meeting for party nomination aspirants at its Mikocheni headquarters and invited the other attendees, including journalists. He said Lissu and he were travelling on party business when the arrangements were made.
The evidence is material to the prosecution allegation that Lissu convened the meeting and published words through Jambo TV with intent to threaten the Government of the United Republic of Tanzania.
Heche maintained that Lissu did not organise the event, invite journalists, operate recording equipment or publish any footage; he also said a prosecution witness had claimed responsibility for publishing the Jambo TV video.
The day’s proceedings also contained potentially significant admissions for the prosecution. Heche said Lissu had told stakeholders that CHADEMA would mobilise citizens to stop an election held without reforms and had said, “We will disrupt this election.”
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He maintained, however, that the intended objective was political and legal reform, not violence.
‘Lissu did not organise the meeting’
Heche resumed his evidence by saying he learned of the April 3 meeting through a telephone call from CHADEMA’s mainland deputy secretary general, Amani Golugwa. He said Golugwa told him the meeting had been arranged by the party secretariat under secretary general John Mnyika to further explain the No Reforms, No Election position to aspirants.
Tundu Lissu: “The allegation against me says that I organised that meeting. What do you say?”
John Heche: “That is not true, because Lissu did not organise the meeting. He and I were on a tour, and he was not involved.”
Heche said more than 200 people attended, including national party leaders, directors, aspirants, journalists, a pastor and a sheikh. He said the journalists had cameras, notebooks, pens, audio recorders and other working equipment, but that he did not count them or know which outlet might have broadcast live.
The witness said Mnyika opened the meeting and subsequently invited senior leaders to speak according to party hierarchy. Heche said he spoke briefly before inviting Lissu, who then spoke for more than two hours in a meeting that lasted more than four hours.
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Heche said the excerpts specified in the charge sheet took less than a minute to read and represented only a small part of Lissu’s address.
Tundu Lissu: “Were the words I read from the charge sheet the only words I used in my speech?”
John Heche: “The speech had many words, not only those you read from the charge sheet.”
Wider speech, same policy
According to Heche, Lissu’s April 3 address set out CHADEMA’s criticism of Tanzania’s electoral system. He said Lissu spoke about what he described as an unfair system that prevented citizens from choosing leaders, favoured CCM, restricted opposition candidates and generated violence during elections.
Heche said Lissu argued for constitutional and legal amendments, a restructured electoral commission, changes to constituency boundaries, equal campaign conditions and an independent election administration from national to ward level.
He also described what he said were barriers facing opposition agents and candidates, including difficulties obtaining accreditation, access to polling stations and electoral-result forms.
Tundu Lissu: “What did I say about preventing disasters during elections?”
John Heche: “You said the way to prevent disasters was to create an electoral system without bias — one that is free and fair and gives equal conditions for competition.”
Heche said Lissu made substantially the same arguments in meetings with the United States Embassy, retired prime minister Joseph Warioba, the Mwalimu Nyerere Foundation’s Joseph Butiku, the Tanzania Editors Forum, Catholic Church leaders, the Legal and Human Rights Centre and former Kenyan prime minister Raila Odinga.
READ MORE: CHADEMA Communications Chief Disputes Claim Lissu Published Alleged Treasonous Remarks
He said the party’s General Assembly had directed its Central Committee to undertake such stakeholder outreach after CHADEMA adopted its reform policy in early 2025. Heche said the party then held public meetings in the Nyasa zone and that Lissu’s message in those rallies differed only in wording, not content.
John Heche: “The April 3 speech was the same as the speeches to stakeholders and at public meetings. There was no difference, except perhaps in the words used; he spoke about the problems in elections and how to reform them.”
‘Stop’ and ‘disrupt’ language
During the morning session, Lissu asked Heche what he had told stakeholders about mobilising Tanzanians to oppose the 2025 election. Heche said Lissu had explained that CHADEMA would speak to citizens at public meetings in opposition to an election conducted under the existing system.
Heche said Lissu did not use the precise phrase “mobilise rebellion” in those engagements, but described the broader aim as opposing what the party considered defective electoral systems.
When Lissu asked directly about particular expressions, Heche confirmed that he had said the party would mobilise the public to stop the election and that “we will disrupt this election” was also said. He said he could not recall Lissu using tutakinukisha — roughly, “we will make it smell” — in the stakeholder meetings.
Tundu Lissu: “Tell the judges about the words, ‘We will mobilise the public to stop the election.’”
John Heche: “Yes, he said that, Your Honours.”
Lissu: “And the words, ‘We will disrupt this election’”?
Heche: “Yes, he said we would disrupt this election.”
The witness said Lissu’s stated objective was to postpone the 2025 election so that reforms could first be made, which, in his account, would avert violence, abductions and injuries.
Videos and alleged publication
Heche said he saw different versions of the April 3 meeting on YouTube channels operated by Jambo TV, The Chanzo and Mwanzo TV. He estimated that the Jambo TV video ran for about two hours, while the other outlets had shorter versions of about 45 minutes and about an hour.
READ MORE: Court Gives Lissu Treason Trial 14 More Days as Defence Calls CHADEMA Communications Chief
He said the charged phrases appeared among the remarks he heard in the video, alongside the broader discussion of electoral problems.
Tundu Lissu: “The charge says I published the words on Jambo TV. What do you say?”
John Heche: “That is not true because Lissu is not a Jambo TV employee. A prosecution witness in the box said he was the one who published it.”
Heche said he did not see Lissu handle a camera, radio equipment or any other recording device during the meeting. He said Lissu only spoke.
Questions on charged conduct
Lissu then asked Heche whether, to his knowledge, the Constitution, Penal Code or the 2024 presidential, parliamentary and councillor elections law created offences called rebellion, mobilising rebellion, disrupting an election, stopping an election or kukinukisha.
Heche repeatedly answered that he was not aware of such offences. He also said he did not know of an offence of forming an intention to stop an election.
These answers were the witness’s views on the law, rather than legal rulings by the court. The prosecution will have an opportunity to test the evidence, including the basis of Heche’s understanding, during cross-examination.
Lissu also asked whether the April speech contained instructions to burn polling stations, BRT stations, CCM or government offices; cut voters’ fingers; or kill police officers, election officials or other people. Heche said he heard no such instructions in the speech or the video.
The defence moved to events after the October 29, 2025 election. Heche said he had listened to a speech by Justice Othman Chande and did not hear it identify Lissu, CHADEMA or any other individual or political party as having incited the violence that day.
He said the speech did not identify people alleged to have cut voters’ fingers, killed police officers or civilians, or damaged specific property. Heche also said no CHADEMA leader, to his knowledge, had been invited to give evidence before the Chande commission.
Heche told the court that he took part in talks between CHADEMA, CCM and government representatives that began after a 2022 meeting with President Samia Suluhu Hassan at Chamwino State House. He said the sides created a team to examine constitutional and electoral reform, cases involving opposition figures, public meetings and alleged abductions.
According to Heche, CHADEMA submitted written proposals and a roadmap that it said would complete reform before the 2024 local government elections. He said the talks ended in 2023 after the other side sent a written response rejecting all matters that the parties had discussed.
Tundu Lissu: “How did those talks end?”
John Heche: “They replied in writing and said they had rejected all the matters we had agreed on in those reconciliation meetings.”
Heche said he was in police custody in Dodoma on October 29, 2025, having been arrested a week earlier. He began to describe reports of deaths during the day’s events, citing a figure of more than 518 and a remark he attributed to Warioba.
State Attorney Nassoro Katuga objected that the assertion was hearsay. Lissu responded that the defence had further witnesses and could corroborate the evidence; Justice Ndunguru allowed the questioning to continue.
READ MORE: Lissu Defence Brings Election-observer Claims and Arrest Accounts Into Treason Trial
Heche said he later learned of events through news reports, international and regional observer material, and statements from religious bodies.
He attributed to the Catholic bishops and the Muslim Imams’ Council criticism of the use of force and calls for investigations, and described observer reports from SADC, the African Union, the East African Community, the EU, the United Nations, the World Council of Churches and the Thabo Mbeki Foundation.
Heche calls case political
Towards the end of his examination-in-chief, Lissu asked Heche for his view of the treason case. Heche described it as false and politically motivated, saying he believed it was intended to weaken CHADEMA’s campaign for reform.
Tundu Lissu: “I have been charged with treason and have been inside for more than a year. In your understanding, what kind of case is this?”
John Heche: “In my understanding, it is a false case intended to suppress democracy and set back our party’s campaign for change.”
The court halted the proceedings after the prosecution said it had many questions arising from Heche’s evidence. Justice Ndunguru asked the state to complete its cross-examination on Monday, September 14, and adjourned the case until then.
